Interviews

The 1996 VOL-List Interview

by Joe Kirk, Part 1

This interview was conducted on behalf of the Vigilantes of Love mail list. The interview took place in the Mallonee home in Athens, GA on two separate Tuesdays in August of 1996. The first, on the afternoon of the 6th, was a chaotic affair that included all the members of VOL; Bill Mallonee, Chris Bland, and Tom Crea, as well as Bill's wife Brenda and his son's Joshua and Joseph.

The interview started on the front porch, where we enjoyed the pleasant ambiance of the blistering Georgia summer air and the sound of a chainsaw cutting wood for the winter a few houses away. Eventually, Brenda convinced us we were idiots for enduring this and we moved to the kitchen.

Members of the VOL list had sent me about six pages worth of questions that I had arranged into what seemed like a logical order for the conversation to follow. But from the very first question, it was obvious that the conversation had a will of it's own. We jumped topics so often that I had difficulty knowing where to go next on my list of questions. People left the room, the phone rang, people came into the room, the phone rang, the chainsaw buzzed, the phone rang again. And so it went for about four hours.

At the end of the day, I felt that the beginning of a good interview was recorded on my video, but only the beginning. It seemed like we had touched the surface of some good issues, but I had not managed to get to the deeper waters that I sensed were there. As I transcribed the interview, the cues were obvious. Certain words, phrases and ideas stood out like signposts pointing me to the issues that Bill wanted to explore. So I went back to Athens on Tuesday, the 20th. This time it was just Bill and me in the kitchen with bagels and coffee. The distractions were few and we covered a lot of ground in about an hour. I think we managed to get into the deeper water.

The questions of the members of this list have provided the foundation of these past two interviews. However, since I did not stick very closely to the question that the list sent this year, I have not included the names of any of the authors with the questions, though I have put the question in quotes whenever I read it word for word. If you want to know who asked what, you can find the original questions in the VOL list archive. My sincere thanks to those who submitted questions: Jason Burton, Fred & Alice Wright, David Scott, Scott Pursley, Kyle Griffin, Jonathan Kendall, Rick Schupp, John Streck, Michael Andrew Cash, Toby Gast, Jim Eisenbraun, Jeff McCloud, Rob Herrema, David Purcel, Jim Keffer, Doyle Strader, Trey Mobley, Tom Senor, David Scott, Marc Pilvinsky, R. George, Lynne and John Inness, Thanh Dickerson, Robert Szarka, Trey Miller, Kathryn B. Walrath, Toby Gast, Sansbury Family, Craig R. Higgins, Jason Burton, Chris Smith, Luke, and the anonymous music industry insider.

I tried to edit out all the confusion and anything that seemed libelous. I resisted the urge to merge everything into a “logical” order. This may make it harder to follow, with all the wandering around and gotos and gosubs. But I like the feel of it. It seems raw and honest. Two words that mean a lot to VOL. I think the final product provides a pretty good window into the Vigilantes, circa 1996.

It is impossible for me to overstate how comfortable these people are together. I've known Bill for five years and have watched VOL go through many changes. I don't think I have ever seen him so content or so prolific. He is writing new songs at an amazing rate and the band is learning them almost as fast.

During the second interview, Bill had the demo versions of the 20 or so new songs they are getting ready to record for the new Mercury release playing in the background. It sounded raw and full and edgy. It rocked and it jangled and it demanded my attention. I liked it. Only time will tell whether big things are in store for VOL, but big things are certainly in store for VOL fans.

Joe Kirk - August 30, 1996

The 1996 VOL-list Interview, Part 2

August 6th, on the front porch with everybody:

Joe: It's been over a year since the last interview. How has your life-style as a traveling musician influenced your work and your world view? Has your theology and life philosophy changed significantly?

Bill: I would say in the last nine months since this unit has been together, it has become the core of Vigilantes of Love. Its kind of like what I was shooting for when the thing started but for various reasons was not able to get the right players locked into it. And that's a big deal. Chemistry in a band is real important. I've been fortunate to work with great players throughout all the records who have contributed substantially to the songs. I usually come up with the bare bones and the framework and the lyrics. But the additives that make a record a notch above what that song would have been, all that stuff has been fleshed out by people like the Struggleville band, John Evans, Billy Holmes, and those kind of guys. And that has been great.

But on the road with the three of us locked up in a van for months at a time, doing a lot of extreme touring at the small club level, I think it gave us a conviction that we were doing the right thing even if every night was not a grand and glorious affair. And I think it knit our hearts together as far as that pioneer spirit of doing roots oriented music with a heartfelt message. I think it kind of bonded us. I don't want to put words in the other guys mouths, but I know it was a bonding experience for me.

There were other factors too. We were listening to a lot of Uncle Tupelo and Son Volt records. Jay Farrar, who's the lead singer/songwriter in those bands uses those road oriented songs as a metaphor for something much bigger in his life. I think it struck a chord with me as I started writing more of those kind of songs. Not necessarily about the road, but about the emotions that come out on the road. Like feeling like there's not a safety net there and that everything is a gift in some way because you happen to be rolling through a particular town and seeing a particular person and shaking a particular hand, sitting at a particular lunch counter at a particular time. You feel highly looked over after a while. And sometimes you feel highly abandoned too. And those are great emotions to write about.

Joe: You're obviously more comfortable with this band than you have been in a long time.

Bill: Yeah, the Struggleville band was run as kind of a democracy as much as it could be, creatively. I think, to a certain extent, my voice got to be the last one heard. I think that band wanted to play at 11 all night long and I think the acoustic parts and the voicings kind of got regulated to the backside. Struggleville kind of feels like a detour to me. Although I think it was a great band and those guys made huge sacrifices. But it feels like a detour. It feels like Blister Soul should have been the record after Killing Floor.

Joe: When I did last years interview, Tom was here practicing with you. He had been in the band about a week and had just played his first show with VOL. He was so new in fact that you didn't let me use his name in the interview. And the lineup has changed several times since then. So tell us how the two of you got here.

Tom: I met Bill originally through Alice Berry, who is a mutual friend of ours. Alice was my boss at the University of Georgia. I had started to attend University Church, which is where Bill goes too. So she introduced us and I joined the band. Within a few weeks, we were on the road touring. It all happened very quickly.

Joe: Did you drum in other bands before VOL?

Tom: Yeah, I was in several local bands in Athens before this. Nobody you would have heard of. A bunch of totally unknown groups.

Joe: So VOL fans won't want to go out and collect their music?

Tom: No, actually I had never played on a recording before Bill's band.

Joe: Chris, how about you?

Chris: The first time I had heard of Bill or his music was when I was a student at Georgia State. That was back when Album 88 was playing Driving the Nails. That was the first song of Bill's that I heard. I've always been drawn to music from a lyrical perspective, so I liked the song. I've always enjoyed artists that had something to say and I enjoy literate music.

Anyway, that was my introduction to the band and I continued to hear about them off and on. But I didn't know much about them. Then one day my sister came to me and told me that this guy had moved in across the street from her that played in a band called the Vigilantes of Love. I thought that was kind of odd, but in the back of my mind I thought it would be great if I could play with them someday. But it was one of those thought you have, like seeing a woman and thinking it would be great to marry her, but you don't really ever see it happening.

About two years ago, my sister had a garage sale and I came to town to hang out at it. Bill and Brenda came over and Bill and I ended up making the trip to Dairy Queen with his son Joe. I remember we talked about Edward Knippers and Image Magazine. Bill said at that time that he was looking for a bass player. This was actually almost prior to Chris Donohue joining the band. It was right as David was leaving. Bill said he was going to try out Chris for about a month and he would call me if it didn't work out. Bill doesn't know this but I went out and bought the entire VOL catalog so that I would be prepared in case I got called to audition.

About a month later, I gave Bill a call and he said that it looked like Chris wanted to stick with this and that he needed to let him do that since he'd already made sacrifices for the band and was committed to it. Later, I heard them on the radio together and I could tell they were compatriots philosophically and that they worked well together. So I thought that was the end of that.

I had been doing some substitute teaching around Atlanta and had started doing some studio engineering. I figured I was going to end up working in that field or possibly even in multimedia. I thought that was the direction my life was taking. Then I got a call from my sister Shannon. She said that Chris was going to be moving to guitar and that Bill was looking for a bass player again and that I needed to call him.

Bill: She was real emphatic about it.

Chris: Yeah, she was very emphatic. Like, get in your car and drive over here right now! But I'm not the type to foist myself on people, so I figured if he was interested he would call me. But she really encouraged me. So I thought, what the heck, I may as well call him. So I did and he said he was just thinking about me and was going to give me a call.

Joe: And you had never seen Bill perform at that time?

Chris: No, I hadn't. Let's see, this was on a Saturday and they were going out on a nine week tour on Monday, so we couldn't see any way we could get all of us together. So Bill called Chris Donohue and Chris said he wanted to hear the guy who was taking his place. So he asked me to come up to Nashville to audition with him. So the audition consisted of me driving to Nashville on Sunday after learning three songs Saturday night and auditioning at Chris' house. With much fear and trepidation, I climbed into my car and drove up. I walked into his house and it was like a music conservatory. I thought, what in the world have I gotten into?

So we played the three songs and he played some new songs and I fumbled through those. Frankly, I was expecting a polite “thank you for coming, I'll talk to Bill and we'll get back to you.” But he said he thought I would work and that he'd call Bill and tell him. I was stunned.

Joe: So you took him in the band without ever hearing him?

Bill: I had never heard him. I asked Chris what he thought and he said he thought he'd be fine. He said there are things he goes for that he wouldn't pick, but he'll be fine. And he said he would look great on stage because he was tall, kind of lanky and played barefoot.

Joe: Is this some kind of requirement of yours? Can you not play with shoes on?

Chris: Oh I can, but I just enjoy the physical nature of being barefooted and playing. There's a certain more relaxed kind of feeling about it that I enjoy when I play. I think I've only played with my sandals on once. We were at an outdoor festival in Seattle in the middle of summer and the stage was very warm. I took my shoes off and literally bounced around for about a song. I thought, this is ridiculous, I can't stand still so I put my sandals back on. But that's the only time I can think of.

Bill: But we digress. Chris had to learn about eighteen songs in three days.

Chris: Yeah, Bill gave me a list of songs to learn and I joined them a week later in Cincinnati. The first time I played with them was the next night in Sterling, Illinois. We had never played a note together until sound check that day. So we hit the stage pretty much unrehearsed.

Bill: A trial by fire.

Chris: It was great. It was exhilarating, the whole gamut of emotions.

Joe: VOL has had sort a revolving door of musicians. But it feels like you didn't go through quite the same process with these guys that you did in the past, say with the Struggleville band. In last years interview you said you were looking for a Bible study that rocks.

Bill: Well, that was a little tongue in cheek. But the things that broke up the Struggleville band were just as much personal as they were musical. I didn't think I could make a good record with that band. We were all four in agreement on that at the time.

Joe: So was your need for fellowship, for lack of a better word, so strong that it didn't matter how good these guys were?

Bill: Oh no. Listen, I think Chris and Tom are good musicians. And I want to make it very clear to the readers of this interview that they shouldn't draw that implication. It's just that the road is a very un-nurturing place to be. And all of a sudden it has turned into a very nurturing place for the music that I write. And that is only accounted for by the chemistry we have among the three of us.

The road tends to just beat you up and wear you out. You run into all sorts of demoralizing things. Sometimes they are generated by your own record company, who ought to be your friend, but sometimes they turn out to be your foe. But you've got to find a way to take it all in stride and get on stage and play the best 90 minutes you can, whether you feel like it or not. Whether you've had enough sleep or not. The Struggleville band could do that, but the other 22 and a half hours a day we were lying through our teeth about whether we were connecting as a band.

Look, in thirteen months that the Struggleville band was together, we learned only two new songs. I take that as a clear message. I'm writing at a huge clip these days, sometimes three new songs a day when I'm at home with my word processor and my guitar in hand. And I'm pretty heavy with the editing. I try to make sure that I'm not just repeating myself.

So back to the original question, it may have been a little tongue in cheek, but I meant it about the Bible study that rocks. That's part and parcel of what drives the music. This is a truth driven band. Hopefully it's a grace driven band too. We've learned a lot from being together. We're all very different, personality wise. I think we would all be friends even if we weren't playing together.

Joe: It seems to be more than the fact that you've gone out and found two believers. There are plenty of bands made up entirely of Christians that just eat each other up on the road. There seems to be something more going on here.

Chris: I think the dynamics are very much akin to a marriage. Just because a man and a woman are believers, that doesn't guarantee that they will have a good marriage or that they were right for each other. In a band or in a marriage, you may not see things eye to eye, but you work them out because you are committed to each other, to making this entity work.

Bill: I think it's hard for us to put into words, but we just have a lot of fun playing together. I think we sound good as a three piece. The last year has been a downsizing year for us. We lost Chris Donohue because the money wasn't there to support four members anymore. We lost a road manager and a guitar tech because the money wasn't there for them either.

What we are doing is not very safe. I don't know if a lot of the Christian listeners understand this. I think it is safer to play churches, but not for the reasons people think. The main reason is that there's huge amounts of money involved. It's not considered a hard ticket. The prices are inflated and a lot of these bands, including the alternative bands get paid real well for a church show. But we basically play small clubs and get a take from the door. Usually it's just enough to get us to the next town.

That calls for a great deal of trust that God will provide in a way that allows us to keep doing it. And when it's not there we have to trust enough that it doesn't rent us apart but draw us close together. I've noticed it time and again with these guys.

Joe: So how do you feel about playing as a three piece today?

Bill: We went out as a three piece for a bunch of dates in October of 95 with the Freedy Jones Band, which is another Capricorn band. I don't think they went well because I don't think I had figured out how to make it work. But somewhere about eight to ten shows into that run, stuff started to click. Particular songs started to sound better than the record version, whereas before I just thought we were leaving part of the song out. And then I started writing a bunch of new stuff that was specifically related to being a three piece band.

Joe: You seem to be consciously writing for a three piece right now.

Bill: That's very true. Plus I'm walking out on a limb a little more too as far as playing riffs and solos and things like that. It feels good. To me, it feels like the most honest music we have made as a band because all the previous stuff has been tied up in band democracy or heavy handed producers. This feels like what should have happened after Killing Floor.

In my perfect world, I'd rather have a rocking lead guitar player in the band. But he'd have to be more than that. I'd need some sort of multi-instrumentalist who played mandolin and fiddle. That would allow us to get back to some of that early acoustic stuff and do the new acoustic stuff too.

Joe: Do you expect Chris Donohue to come back?

Bill: I've talked to Chris and he's open to it, but it's a money thing. He has good work in Nashville as a session player. I think Phil Madeira helped him break into the ccm circle and get good support work there. I think he wants to play on records and go out behind solo artists. But we're still on great speaking terms. He's a friend and is real supportive. The last time we played Nashville, he said he was amazed, he thought it worked as a three piece.

Joe: Yeah, he and I talked some at Cornerstone and he said he thought it was good for the band to be a three piece because it was forcing everybody to push themselves. When you are teaching the band a few new songs a week at sound check, it tends to stretch everybody.

Bill: Yeah, I think we hit the songs with authority these days. For a while there, we had this record that we had to promote which had four or five dubs on it. It was impossible to reproduce it as a three piece. It felt disconcerting to feel like we just hadn't put it across some nights.

Joe: Last year you said you didn't think you were a good guitarist and that you considered yourself more of a strummer, which was a lot of why you played an acoustic rather than an electric and why you needed a foil on electric guitar.

Bill: Well, just scratch all of that. That's definitely not true anymore. I like playing big loud rock and roll guitar, my version of it anyway.

Joe: Did that change in you first, which moved you toward this band or did this band force you to change?

Bill: Oh it was this band that changed me. Necessity is the Mother of invention. We've only got three guys, so how do you make that work? The first thing I did was buy a 100 Watt head and a big cabinet for it and just let it roar. I thought, shoot, this is fun.

Joe: Do you feel inhibited in your stage presence because you have to work so much harder on playing well. You don't seem to jump around as much these days.

Bill: Yeah, somewhat. Listen, I'm convinced that the acoustic guitar was never heard 90% of time in the Struggleville band. That band was so loud. I don't think the acoustic was ever in the room. Bruce Neese, our sound guy at the time, told me once that he used it as sort of a backdrop. He said you hear it when the band stops playing and at the intro to the songs. He told me this about two weeks before the band broke up and I thought to myself, this is not what I want my band to be about.

Chris: Bill probably has a tendency to sell himself short about his playing ability. His solo acoustic style manages to be percussive, rhythmic, and melodic at the same time. So he's more than just a strummer. Which has been proven out as he's gravitated towards the electric. As a matter of fact, there have been a number of times that we have not even carried an acoustic with us.

Bill: You know, a lot of that stuff just doesn't translate unless it's in a small room. Billy and I found that when we were just playing the mandolin and acoustic guitar. In a big room, the instruments sounded brittle and cold. The attack and the warmth were all gone.

Joe: So are you sort of ripping VOL in half? Are you just going to play the big nasty garage band stuff with these guys and do the acoustic stuff solo?

Bill: No, I think we have some songs that are in the middle. Some songs that were acoustic have been reinterpreted as electric songs and I think they work better that way. I'd like to use a solo record for the stuff that won't translate into rock and roll.

Joe: Is there anything you can't play as a three piece that you wish you could?

Bill: Almost all of Struggleville is very difficult because that is such a lead guitar driven record. Newt Carter and I talked about that recently. He joined the band thinking he wouldn't play a lot of leads and then Struggleville turned out to be a very traditional lead guitar driven album with breaks and solos and riffs. And I just can't get at that stuff. I think Newt is one of the best guitarists in the country at that whole integration of roots rock. He's been able to assimilate it all and put his imprint on it. Newt is getting to be in big demand for that gritty tube driven sound.

I've written a ton of acoustic stuff and I know a lot of our fans like that and cherish it as being reflective of the core of what the band is. In fact, some of that is true. Going back to the question about the fourth member, it would be nice to have the fourth member who could bridge the gap between the acoustic stuff and the loud stuff. Someone who played a traditional instrument, like a hammered dulcimer, or a mandolin, or a fiddle, or all of those. But also someone who could plug in the electric on the rock and roll stuff. I think we'll know that person when we find him.

In the meantime, I may just end up putting out a son of Jugular kind of record with basically just me and the acoustic and a rack harmonica. The record company is trying to figure out how an album like that fits into the big scheme of things. But I don't really care. If there's 5000 people out there who will buy it, that's more than enough reason to do it. If there's five people out there, that's enough for me because that's what I do, I'm a songwriter. I need to put out my songs for people to hear.

Joe: Several people asked what they could do to encourage your label to release an acoustic album. One guy even asked if he needed to throw bricks through the label's window.

Bill: Well, we certainly wouldn't encourage that. Not at this point anyway. And certainly not while you have that video running. There's not much the fans can do. We didn't have permission to do that tape last year and I got grief for it from my management. We want to do a CD for the fan club for Christmas this year, but I'm not sure the label will let us. It's just the price of not being an independent.

Look, I can demonstrate that it's very easy to recoup the cost of making an acoustic album. Mark Heard knew this. That's why he made Second Hand. They had spent so much money on Dry Bones Dance that they couldn't recoup it. So he just made another album that was inexpensive. It's much less expensive to sit in front of a mic with an acoustic guitar and just record some songs.

Record companies these days are stuck on their 12 month and their 18 month plans. When I was growing up, there were a lot of people that released an album every six to nine months. It showed their creativity and their growth. These days they bleed an album for as many singles as they can possibly get off of it. And then the bands have to go into hibernation for a few years because everybody is sick of them. It's ludicrous. I'd rather toss an album overboard every six months and just see if it floats. I'd be happy with that and I probably do most of this stuff for me anyway. I know there's a fan base out there but, at the end of the day, I think we put on the songs because we want to listen to them. If I have it on my own CD, I can listen to my own songs.

Joe: I don't want this interview to be about the Struggleville band, but I think your fans would like to know where those guys are now.

Bill: I run into David around town a good bit. Newt and I talk a good bit. In fact, he played with the band at the 40 Watt a few weeks ago. He's a new daddy. He and Heather had their first baby a few weeks ago. He's been working with some Christian artists. He's working with John Austin and Jan Krist, producing records for them. He used the Struggleville band for John's new record and for a record for Nick Giaconnia. I don't know when or if they will be released. A lot of people were so impressed with those players that they wanted them for their backup band. John Austin was very verbal about that desire. I guess he got his wish. I haven't heard from Travis, but I know he's playing drums with Better Than Ezra and is on their new record.

We're all on speaking terms. There was a time when that wasn't true. There was a lot of anger towards me because I cut it off real abruptly. But I was exhausted and just had to do it for me. I don't regret the demise of that band. It was killing me. We weren't learning new songs. With this new band, we can learn two new songs a week and play them at a show that weekend. That's the outlet I need to be creative.

Joe: Chris and Tom, do you all like the constant flow of new songs and learning two new songs a week?

Chris: If I can come up with something I like fairly quickly and feel comfortable with it, yes I like it. If it's a song I have to grapple with and it's a song we're going to have to play that night, then no I don't like it.

Joe: Does Bill bring you the bass and drum parts or do you have to create them?

Bill: Oh they're completely composing their parts.

Chris: Usually, the chord structure and the rhythm that Bill brings pretty much dictates the direction we should go. So from a legal standpoint we certainly wouldn't be seen as co-authors of the song, but we are creating the sound.

Bill: It's an arrangement and orchestration kind of thing. Tom usually comes up with an organic part, which is why I like his drumming so much. It's very visceral and straightforward and in the pocket. Chris is a very lyrical and melodic kind of player, so just going through the changes of the root chord is not good enough for him. He's quite expressive in that. People are going to hear that on the four new cuts on the VOL release. It's not the typical bass part. It's taking it up another notch because he's put a very interesting bass part in there and taken the time to think about it.

Joe: Are the four new songs just the three of you?

Bill: John Keene played the solo section on Doublecure, but the rest is just the three of us.

Joe: The new album has songs off of four different albums, all with different lineups. And now you've added yet another lineup. Does it work?

Bill: I think the four new songs are the most honest songs we've done. John was getting ready to produce the new 10,000 Maniacs album and we only had three days in the studio.

Chris: It was madness for me.

Bill: John wasn't going to be able to spruce it up.

Joe: Which you like, right?

Bill: Oh yeah, I've liked that for two years and wanted to make a record like that. That's why I like the demos for Blister Soul as well as I like Blister Soul. Because they're just kind of ugly and not very radio friendly. The new songs are the most honest thing this band has ever done. There's the songs on the record and there's what we do live and there's not much difference between the two. There was always a huge chasm before. I don't think that gap should be there. That's what I'm really happy about here. Plus, I think they are really great songs.

There's a hidden track on the album that's the demo version of Doublecure done at Mark Maxwell studio about two years ago that's just acoustic guitar and is in 4/4.

Chris: Some fans will like it better. I think a lot of the older VOL fans, who maybe started listening with Jugular, are attracted to the intimate acoustic style. And the hidden track really is that sense of a guy and a guitar and a microphone. I hope they like both versions.

Bill: Yeah, I've cited chapter and verse on Neil Young a lot of times. People that like Out on the Weekend off Harvest probably like Rockin in the Free World too. But those are drastically different songs. Done in drastically different ways. But that's what great music is about, being able to use the format to put an honest emotion out, honestly and believably stated. Sometimes all you need is an acoustic guitar and sometimes you need a big louder thing. And they're both valid and they're both fun. I hope that's what comes across in these four tracks.

I was listening to Broken Arrow the other day, and here's Neil Young getting on into his mid fifties and you can tell when he's playing his guitar that he's having a lot of fun. It comes across in the tracks. He may have written better stuff, like Cowgirl in the Sand or Like a Hurricane. But he's having fun and that translates. I don't hear a lot of that in modern rock. Not just the angst thing, it just doesn't sound like a band playing in a room together. It just sounds like big AOR producers who just decided to produce a modern rock album in the same way. They all sound like the bastard sons of Black Sabbath to me.

I hope the new tracks sound like we were having fun. We were in a much closer proximity during the recording. We weren't actually in the same room together, but that's what we are going to try to do on the next record. We're going to try to get in the same room together and play live. We're going to use monitors and turn them up and play in the room with a small PA.

Joe: Tom, is this your first recording experience?

Tom: I've been in a studio and recorded about three or four times before this. But none of them were real professional situations. So basically this is a pretty new experience. I really like the way the new songs turned out.

Joe: How were the songs picked for the VOL release?

Bill: They asked several people including me and my manager Dan Russell and Bruce Brown the ccm journalist. It's not exactly the list I picked but I did OK the final selection. I think the selection is a little fluffy, which is why I wanted the four new songs on there. I'm happy with the final product but I would have put more like 20 songs and I definitely would have included Bolt Action. I would have put some more unsettling and noisy stuff on there. Bolt Action would have been a favorite because it is such a hard edged song where you've got that perfect marriage of lyrics with the big sound.

Joe: Did they turn down that song because it was too noisy or because it's about a psycho in a bell tower with a rifle?

Bill: Yeah that's basically it. Barry has been real good about it. He sees himself as being on our side and is trying to sell us to ccm. And without making us milk-toast he's got to find a way to sell it to that group. And I understand that. But I would have played the story of the age old issue of how Christianity and the arts interface. Are we going to play this retreatism, castle style Christianity where we run inside a castle and pull up the drawbridge or are we going to get out there and make something that's believable?

To me, ccm has tended to go for the castle motif, where they draw for one another, paint for one another and write for one another and speak a language that nobody understands. Hopefully, when we do our job best we are not guilty of that. We try to do songs that are more personal and believable and organic. I'm not saying that our message is easily understood. And that's the primary mark of ccm, it has to be easy to Cliff note. The reason it stays that way is because it has worked in the past, so they just keep doing that model.

Joe: Let's change directions here since Brenda is with us now.

“Many of your songs, especially on some of your older albums, show a vibrancy in your marriage and love for your wife. In your interviews, you always seem to be worshipping the ground she walks on. It is rare, even among Christians, to find the kind of freshness and vitality that comes across to me in your marriage. Do you have any advice you can give to a young couple to keep their marriage fresh?”

Brenda: Oh I've got lots. How much tape do you have? I was going to write a book one time called Brenda's Ten Ways to Keep a Marriage Fresh.

Joe: I assume one would be your double headed shower?

Brenda: Yes, that was a sub-point in the sex chapter.

Joe: Now this interview is getting good.

Brenda: We're very active sexually. But we are also very active in lots of other way. We talk a lot, we do a lot together, we go a lot of places together. We actively put each other before ourselves. We pray together every night.

Bill: We don't have a lot of stuff that we do outside of the other one being involved in it.

Joe: Most people that know either one of you well know both of you together.

Brenda: Yeah, it's Brenda and Bill. A lot of letters come to us addressed to Brenda and Bill or VOL and Brenda. It's sweet. But I'm not Yoko.

Bill: I think that's the way it should be.

Joe: You're real supportive of what Bill does. And it's a hard life. He's on the road a lot and you struggle to make ends meet.

Brenda: I grew up in a family where I had a Dad who lived there and made lots of money but he wasn't there emotionally. To me it's not the time that matters. It's the quality and the effort that you put in. I don't really think it's hard. I find our life interesting and fun. I love going out on the road. I go out with them as much as I can. It's hard for us to be apart. We had a $725 phone bill one month during a big Struggleville tour.

Joe: In last year's interview, Bill credited you with helping him come out of his shell and develop into an artist. Was that conscious on your part?

Brenda: No, it's just the natural result of working hard in a marriage and wanting the other one to become the best they can.

Bill: Our boys are a big help too. They are part of the team and pitch in and help a lot too.

Brenda: But back to my marriage tips. We both have a very close relationship with the Lord. We pray together every night. We even used to pray together over the phone when he was on the road. We read together and to each other. He just read me Griffin and Sabine. It was wonderful.

Bill: Those are great books. They're about this artist and this fan who somehow knows what he's painting while he's painting it. But she's never met him. They fall in love through their correspondence. The book is an integration of the story and their correspondence. There are letters and postcards and artwork throughout it. It's an amazing book.

Brenda: We talk a lot. We listen to each other. We make a lot of love. We spend a lot of time together as a family.

Joe: Are you prepared to keep letting him do this for years to come, even if it doesn't ever take off?

Brenda: Oh absolutely.

Joe: In the past it has seemed like you were willing to make these sacrifices because you saw it as paying your dues and waiting for it to get somewhere. Your attitude seems to have changed since then.

Bill: We've had big expectations so many times. It's funny. It seems like our parents lives and a lot of our friends lives have fallen out in neat little packages. Ours just hasn't. A lot of the major decisions like getting married, having kids, getting this house all came in a very passive way. Our life has not fallen out in a nice tidy little package and I think we are fine with that. To a certain extent, it has allowed us to wonder what God is going to do with us today. We sense God's hand in the band and that has allowed us to trust Him in our daily lives. I don't want to over spiritualize this thing, but that's the way it is.

Brenda: I'm a fan of VOL. I love these guys and I love their music and lyrics. I didn't even know Bill wrote music when we married. I thought we were going to seminary and work in the inner city.

Joe: OK, I've got to ask since you're both here. What is it like for you to have Bill play Love Cocoon while you are in the audience?

Brenda: I love it. It's our song. I see people staring at me and looking uncomfortable and I feel uncomfortable for them. But I'm not uncomfortable. It's a great song. She Walks on Water or this new song, Raw. They're just great songs too.

Joe: Is She Walks on Water about you?

Brenda: How would I know? He doesn't talk to me about what his songs are about. I just learned what Five Miles Outside Monroe was about the other day. And that's only because he explained it from the stage.

Joe: What's it about?

Bill: We used to practice in Monroe Georgia in this woodshed that a friend of mine owned. He told me that the Klan was really active in Walton County and that you would be surprised at the infiltration of the Klan in high places in the local administration. It's your worst case Hollywood scenario with like the mayor being the Grand Dragon or something. The song is about a fictitious murder down there. But real murders like it have happened.

Brenda: There's one time you played Love Cocoon that I was embarrassed. It was in the old downstairs cafe. It was one of the first times I had heard it. It's a real intimate cafe and the people were packed in real close together. There were like 100 people in a place that holds 40. We were sweating and everybody was staring at me and I got embarrassed.

But I like it because the song is about how special love making is in a marriage. That's what we are about. It's like we are telling single people this secret about what they get to look forward to.

Bill: We've been told that there are people playing that song at their wedding if you can believe that. We hear that Doublecure has been played at weddings too. I actually played it at Tobin's wedding.

Brenda: Joshua, what do you think about your Dad being in a band?

Joshua: It's interesting. People sometimes treat you differently because of it. It makes me feel uncomfortable because they go, wow you're Dad's Bill Mallonee. And I think, so what? Your point would be?

Joe: You seem to like being around the band. Not many kids your age hang out in bars. But it doesn't seem to be corrupting you.

Joshua: No, my parents have taught me what to expect in those places so I'm not really shocked. It's not that I think what is happening there is OK, it's just that I know what to expect, so I'm not shocked.

Brenda: Joseph is Tom's drum tech.

Tom: He's a good drum tech too.

The 1996 VOL-list Interview, Part 3

August 6th, in the kitchen with everybody:

Joe: So, Chris what's the deal with giving out the Altoids in concert?

Chris: That was Brenda's idea. She gave me the first ones at Chastain Park when we opened up for Matthew Sweet and told me to pass them out to the audience. I threw out raw Altoids and they actually fought over the little metal container at the end.

Joe: Any particular meaning for it being Altoids?

Brenda: Oh yeah, they're made in Great Britain and approved by the Queen.

Joe: I thought they were a great metaphor for pop music. They are over hyped as the Original Celebrated Curiously Strong Peppermint. They are real sweet and satisfying, but they dissolve quickly and leave a funny aftertaste in your mouth.

Chris: Gosh, that's clever. I wish I had thought of that. Is that copyrighted?

Joe: Chris, let's talk about your clever idea for a minute. Are we going to get another bug story in a future fan club newsletter?

Chris: There may be. I've got an idea, I just need to write it. The next one is going to be the lament of the crayfish.

Brenda: I want this on the record for everybody to read. Nothing I have ever read made me laugh as much as Chris' story. Nothing. The first time I laughed pretty hard. The second time, I wet my pants. I was out of control. I've read it like six times and I find something new in it every time.

Joe: Have other people had this response Chris?

Chris: Well, I've had some people come up after a show and tell me they enjoyed it. Some people have found a deep spiritual meaning in it that may or may not have been intended. I just wrote it because it gave me joy. If people enjoy it and get something out of it that's great.

Brenda: It's the funniest thing I have ever read. Bill thinks Chris is one of the funniest people he has ever known. He'll call me from the road sometimes and he will have been laughing all day because of Chris.

Joe: Let's segue off of that for a minute. Bill, we used to jokingly refer to VOL as the Bill Mallonee Experience. It was your songs and your band and you seemed to primarily have a backup band behind you. But this new band seems different. You've let go of a lot to these guys and have even given Chris the freedom to be sort of the emcee of the band.

Bill: I've always wanted VOL to be a band of Christians that were playing music that was a cut above what was coming out of the church. And the band definitely has roots in the church. I'm not saying we are a “Christian band” or a ccm band because that's a different thing. And the more I think about it, I'm not sure even what that is.

But as far as your real question, I contribute the songs and I think there is a definite vibe or a feel there that's going to be there whether I talk a lot from the stage or not. In some ways I think it's probably smarter for me to be a little less verbose from the stage. And Chris has actually helped there because I don't have to be the ringmaster on stage. That's actually sort of uncomfortable for me. I don't always know what to say between songs. You have to set them up but you don't want to give folks the Cliff notes before the song. I prefer to be more abstract about it.

As a compliment to Chris, he adds this Garrison Keilor feel to it that really helps. We both like Keilor a lot and think it's pretty amazing what he's able to do with a room full of people and a host of faceless listeners. He makes them feel comfortable and that's huge. That used to be part and parcel of radio guys in the 40's. Chris has actually taken some flack for that, even from our management. But frankly that stuff doesn't bother me anymore. This is what we do and we feel good about it.

I'd like to expand on that feel with slides and film and stuff, but we just can't afford it right now. I'd love to have film footage of WWII or the Great Depression or the dust bowl running behind us. I'd like to see some of that integrated with what we do. Rock and roll is supposed to be larger than life. It should make people know that life is in fact bigger than they perceive it.

I feel very good about where the band is at right now. And I don't feel like I have given up too much behind the scenes. It isn't about giving up control, it really enhances the better part of what I bring to the band. Tom is very quiet in situations like this, but behind the scenes he puts a lot into the big decisions. He's an arranger and I think he is responsible for the firmer harder groove of the band.

Joe: Do you all listen to the same kinds of music and read the same books?

Bill: We all like the same kind of roots music.

Chris: I think we are like three overlapping circles. In the middle there's this common ground. I don't like everything Bill or Tom listen to. But I have discovered a lot of great stuff through them.

Bill: It's amazing how, when we share a song or a book or something with one another, the thing we got out of it is what the other one gets too.

Brenda: They are very individual. They don't copycat each other. Except that Bill and Tom dress alike, but even that's a coincidence.

Bill: For a band to have a chemistry like that says a lot. We've gone almost a year with this lineup. It's a very nurturing environment for me, on the road and off it. This band rehearse a great deal. We like playing this music together and we are learning more about ourselves while we are playing it. I think this band will have a great deal of longevity.

Chris: I want to touch on the question of Bill giving up control. Bill has been very gracious to Tom and me. He's in a position to control it and rightfully so because it started as his vision and he's the only common thread in all of it. But he has encouraged us to contribute what we can and I appreciate that. He's even writing with us and the fact that we are a three piece in mind.

Joe: Let me read from last year's interview your comments about being on a ccm label. “Don't pick up the pen. Don't sign a contract on a ccm label. I'm not dissing those labels. But there's this mentality among a lot of the alternative Christian rock bands that is duplicity at best about being on a Christian label.” So what changed?

Bill: What changed was a situation that was not like what I was addressing there last year. The deal with Barry and Warner is their desire to create a label that markets to both. In fact, the record will only be in the ccm market for two weeks longer than the general market. And they have good distribution through WEA, which is huge. I just thought Capricorn was not doing enough to market the record. If there are fans out there that we are missing because they only buy in Christian bookstores, then we need to go to them. And it will still be available in the normal channels. We have not made a ccm record and we are not moving to that camp. We've culled tracks off past records to introduce them to the band.

Joe: So you're not afraid that you'll get stuck in the ccm ghetto?

Bill: I probably feel different than Chris on this. I think he's more worried that we'll be looked at as a ccm band.

Joe: There was a time, Chris, when I thought you would leave the band if it went after the ccm market.

Chris: Yeah, you and I discussed that at the 40 Watt last winter.

Bill: We've had deep ongoing discussions in the van. We're taking a risk here. Barry has a good story and it sounds great. But the Capricorn deal sounded great too. They supposedly had good distribution and marketing, but it all turned out not to be true. I'm not saying they're liars but we've had to work our asses off to get where we are.

But on the positive side, we're still doing original music, playing rock and roll in America and releasing an album a year. And that's a good thing. But we've had to lower our expectations to appreciate that. People told us we would sell 100,000 copies of Struggleville and it just didn't happen. And it didn't happen for reasons that have nothing to do with the band. It has to do with the superstructure around the band.

So when Barry came to us with this offer, I thought well, if there are 20,000 people who won't hear us unless we are in a Christian bookstore, better they buy our record than a Petra record. Not that I dislike Petra, but I think our music is more honest. There's a glass ceiling for alternative Christian bands that sell only in Christian bookstores of about 30,000 records. So why can't we go sell that number? We've never sold that in the general market, so that would be great for us.

The funny thing is that we have friends in well known Christian bands like the Choir or Steve Taylor. And we hear from them all the time that they wish they were where we are. We hear that at Cornerstone all the time. And I respond, oh really, where do you think we are? They actually sell better than us. I have to think our music is more expansive than what it has been given a chance to do.

Joe: So what do you want to see the band do next? VOL comes out in a few weeks and then you are off to do the Greenbelt festival in England. Then back into the studio to do a record for Mercury to be released when?

Bill: They're calling for January. So that will give us the longest window to work a record before school gets out that we've ever had.

Joe: So do you want to go out and open for some better known act?

Bill: Well we did that once and it was the perfunctory experience of thirty minutes with no monitors and no soundcheck. It was miserable. We figured that if we could go sell out a 200 person club on a Wednesday night by ourselves, that would be better and would generate a bigger buzz.

Joe: But the darkside is that you also ended up playing some nights with 20 people in the crowd. That had to be difficult. How do you keep doing that? You've been doing that for years now.

Bill: I just love doing it. There's no explanation. If you love baseball, you go out and play. I love playing music. And if that means taking crap from club owners and stagehands and inclement weather and being robbed, which happened to us last year, then so be it. That's what I enjoy doing. I don't want to over spiritualize it and say that I feel called to do it, but some people seem to get something out of it. And we enjoy doing it together, from the nuts and bolts of working it out in our basement up to performing it. I guess we'll keep doing it as long as we can get an advance to keep making records.

And that goes back to the ccm thing. A lot of the folks who come to see us are Christians who aren't afraid to go to a club and bring a friend to see the Vigilantes of Love. That's a good thing and if the Warner-Resound record serves to open that up, then it will have accomplished what it was supposed to have accomplished.

Joe: Do you think that will change the nature of your crowds and turn club owners off with all these uncomfortable Christians?

Chris: I think that's the case already. A large portion of the fan base is Christians who don't drink enough for the club owners. The same basic crowd, we just hope it gets bigger. Interestingly, we do get comments from club owners that we have a polite crowd and they enjoy that. They enjoy being treated nice for once.

Bill: I still enjoy playing there more than church related shows. They seem odd somehow to me. More like sporting events.

Chris: Back to your question about where I'd like to see this go. I want to see it get as big as it can possibly get. Honestly, I want it to get to a level where it allows us to support ourselves and make music. I'll be content if it doesn't, but if I have any say in how big it gets, which I don't, I want it to get huge. I think the music warrants that.

Bill: At the end of the day, for us anyway, the way we continue to play the weekday shows with a dozen people is that we think the music has something to say and we would like it to be judged on it's own merits. We've never had massive advertising budgets and ads in magazines and billboards and stuff. To date we've never shot a video, which is unbelievable after four records.

Joe: It seems criminal to me. You guys certainly deserve that.

Bill: Well, I resist using the word deserve. But you've got to wonder how far along we would be if we had some of that stuff at our disposal. We are being told that both Warner and Mercury intend to do that. At least they might get it into the fan's hands. And the great thing about VOL fans is that, when they get it, they seem to get it pretty hard. Some void is being filled by this band and I don't think that is a small thing to take note of. I hear a lot of people that say only VOL and one other band are speaking to them right now. I'm not boasting about that but I definitely see it. And it runs from age 15 to 55. What is that about except that we are hitting some chord out there. Again, not to over spiritualize it, but the Lord can use that.

Joe: Well, I had six pages of questions that folks on the VOL list sent in and we really haven't followed them very closely, so how about if I just fire a few of them out in a disjointed fashion. We've gone a long time here, so I won't hit them all but I want to be honest to the group and hit as many as we can.

“Where does Bill get his onstage moves from? He's known for the spin-and-duck, the microphone- head-pounding, and waving his pick in the air in an OK sign, and lately I've noticed the backward-high-knee shuffle. Does he just do whatever the music motivates him to do, or are these moves lifted from someone, or do they <particularly clubbing himself with the microphone> mean something?”

I'll add to that that you don't seem to jump around as much and people seem to miss that. I guess you hurt your knee a while back. Is that why you've slowed down, or is it just that you've got to pay more attention to your playing these days?

Bill: Well, that was then and this is now. But most of that stuff is just a way to reinforce some line in the song. It's really more an expression of joy than anything else. I'm not really a good dancer but I do like having a guitar on as sort of a prop. I did hurt my knee in one of the knee drops so I have to be careful now. I was hitting hard stages with no padding on for years. I felt my kneecap move one night in Florida. Actually it's the other leg that gets strained the most because it carries all the weight during the move. I'm just having to be more careful these days. I still like doing it, but I have to be careful.

Joe: I guess where the question was meant to go was to ask if that stuff is planned? Is this like some Talking Heads thing where it's all choreographed?

Bill: Most of it is spontaneous, but there are some places where it is easier to do in the song because of the chord change I'm doing so I tend to do it there. But most of it is not planned out. I was reading once where it was up for debate as to whether Muhammad Ali's Parkinson's is caused by all the blows to his head. There have been some times I hit the microphone pretty hard and I got to thinking that I didn't want to end up like that. I've dented a lot of windscreens on microphones.

Chris: With your head? They don't just dent right in!

Bill: Sound guys hate it. I've drawn blood three or four times. And then I think, what am I doing? This mic has been used by 300 other singers and I have no idea what germs are on it and I'm slamming it into my scalp.

Joe: “At one show, a friend of mine and I shouted the titles of songs we wanted to hear, and Bill stepped up and quipped "Y'know, a band is just like a jukebox." Does he object to fans making requests? Would he be willing to discuss why?”

Bill: I don't object to them making requests. I like knowing what they want to hear. But people frequently call for some song that I think is inappropriate to play in a big loud setting. Like someone will call for America in the middle of a big rock show with 500 people there and I just don't think that will work. And then, frankly, they'll call for stuff we just don't know or songs off of Struggleville we have jettisoned because they just don't work with the three piece. Bethlehem Steel is a good example. There's a song with multiple overdubs, a guitar line that John Keene came up with and a harmonica part that I don't even play on the album. So why would we do that live?

There are some songs I'd like to get back from Struggleville. If I could ever figure how to play rack harmonica on Last to Know, that might work. Cold Ground is a song I'd like to do. But a song like Sympathy or Runaway Train, we could get at a version of that but I think it would be disappointing for most fans without the fourth member to drive the guitar part.

Sometimes people will call for a song like Russell Perry that they heard me do once or a song like Judas Skin, because they happen to be on the inside track and heard it in Grand Rapids one night. I've got a lot of stuff that I've only played one or two times solo and we're just not prepared to do it with VOL.

Chris: Some fans just want to hear the old songs. They want to hear songs they know, whatever was on the last CD. But then there are other people that want to hear lots of new stuff and they really encourage us to do that.

Bill: Would you say it's split down the middle?

Chris: Oh it's mostly the former. They want to hear old stuff.

Bill: They want to hear Strike While the Iron is Hot, Eleanor, Sick of it All, Anybody's Guess, Odious.

Chris: I certainly don't fault anybody for that. When I go hear an artist, I certainly want to hear songs I've heard. So we don't want to make light of people's desire to hear their favorite song.

Bill: We do a lot of Blister Soul material right now. But, to my way of thinking, it's kind of a treat to get to hear the new stuff first before it's on an album. When I was coming up in the Athens music scene, REM used to do these unannounced shows under an assumed name. Even the club owner wouldn't know who was coming. They played the 40 Watt one night under the bogus name of Hornet Attack on Victor Mature. They had sent out fake press kits that said they were a band from Nashville. It turned out they were premiering Fables of the Reconstruction. There were like 200 people there on a Wednesday night.

Joe: Remember back in about 75, Dylan did that with the Rolling Thunder Review. They would just show up in town and pick a club and play. They were warming up for the big stadium tour when they had about 30 people on stage.

Bill: Yeah, 30 people and a set list of about 100 songs. Dylan is infamous for throwing his band curves. He'll change the songs and even the key from night to night.

Chris: Hopefully, the upcoming Mercury CD will not have as large a gap between what you hear on the CD and what you see live.

Joe: So the Mercury album will be basically just the three of you? And you're going to produce it?

Bill: I'm going to produce it with Dan Russell and Dan Hallas. Dan Hallas is in a band called Hezze and is the guitarist on another Fingerprint band called Ramona Silver. Danny is actually the husband of Ramona, who is the lead singer of Ramona Silver. Danny has produced a lot of Boston based bands. I think it will be real garage sounding. Real spontaneous and honest.

Joe: How do three people produce an album? Is it a democracy?

Bill: It's kind of a think tank thing. I get the final vote though. Cause I can always take my toys and go home if I don't like the way it's turning out. They'll be some real acoustic stuff on it like Blister Soul Reprise.

Brenda: Will there be hidden tracks?

Bill: I think that's been done too much. I'd like to maybe do all the songs as hidden tracks, where it played the songs in random order when you played it.

Joe: “It seems that with each album your use of profanity and graphic images has decreased. Whereas there are a number of things on Jugular that are sufficient for its not being sold in so-called Christian bookstores, I can't think of anything on Blister Soul that would trouble them. Quite apart from whether you are trying to sell to the ccm market, have you made a conscious decision to write in a style that less people would find offensive? Or has this just happened without any premeditation?”

Bill: I think it has happened without premeditation. I don't think profanity is the right word. Profanity means to take something sacred and to debase it in some way. I don't think I've ever used profanity in a song. I have used harsh language and graphic images, but not profanity. There's only one song where I've had reservations about the images I used. That's Lady Luck off Driving the Nails. I don't disagree with using that masturbation image, but I don't think people will get it. But that song makes a lot of sense if you listen to the whole thing. The song is about selfishness and I can't think of anything more selfish.

I can't honestly say I wasn't aware of the shock value of using that image at the time I wrote it. But I've not used four letter words just to get a cheap rise out of people. I've been very thoughtful about what I've put in there. There was a big debate about the use of the phrase “rat's ass” in I Can't Remember. But it's just a southern colloquialism. It's harsh but I don't think it's profane.

Actually Dan Russell lobbied for that to be on the VOL release and, of course, it didn't make it. And that was smart, because they need to first deal with why these songs are not like your typical praise and worship songs before they have to deal with why some whack in Odious, who's reached the end of all discussion, says something like, “am I pissing you off?”

Look, it's harsh language and it's not for everybody. I don't play those tracks for my kids. But I don't think it's flippant or frivolous swearing either. I don't think I've ever done that and I certainly don't encourage it. I guess I do get a little weary from having to defend it, so maybe I have backed off a little because of that. I do have to be aware of the shock value. I actually used the F-word in an early version of Big as Christ. And a friend from church told me that the song didn't need that in it. He was right and I dropped it before it was recorded.

Joe: I watched you change a line in Blister Soul just because I told you in the studio that I thought the word bitch was unnecessary.

Bill: Yeah, and that was actually a good call. But, you know, the Bible has some pretty graphic stuff in it. Israel is described as a whore. I wonder if we haven't thrown this cloak of Victorianism over our Christianity and said that we can't say things in harsh language. But sometimes harsh language is what's needed to describe a situation.

Joe: “What do you think of Real Down Town, a song not especially representative of VOL, being the one song everyone knows?”

Bill: When Real Down Town was written, I was writing a lot of stuff that was way more jangly, so there's a lot of stuff that sounded like that. Most of it ended up in Alice Berry's band, The Cone Ponies. So it's not real representative of what we've been doing lately. But I can still write that jangly stuff if I want to. In fact, the new album might end up with some of that on it because I'm writing a lot these days with the 12 string. Yeah, it's definitely pop. I lobbied for Doublecure to be the single to ccm and Hopeless is as Hopeless Does for the general market.

Joe: “A lot of your songs have a populist tone to them, or at least are written from the perspective of the common man or the underdog. Is this your point of view, or are you giving us the point of view of the character in the song, or both? Do you intend for these songs to carry a political message, and if so, what is it?”

Bill: Well they are written from a populist view, but it's the populism of “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” That's a populist view, meaning it's for both Christians and non-Christians equally. I don't really consciously put a political viewpoint into my songs. I have made some comments lately on stage about the Georgia flag. I think that is worth talking about. But I hate it when bands get caught up in political causes. I didn't like it when U2 went off on that and I've kind of gotten turned off to Bruce Cockburn for that reason.

Joe: There were several questions about what albums you are listening to and what books you are reading.

Brenda: How about if the three of you give us three CDs and three books?

Bill: Son Volt - Trace, Wilco - AM, both of which came out of the demise of Uncle Tupelo, which I like too. And Mighty Joe Moon by Grant Lee Buffalo. Those are the records I'm listening to. Three books? Malcolm Muggeridge, who wrote Jesus the Man Who Lives. It's a life of Christ. Philip Yancy, the Jesus I Never Knew. And I recently reread Frederic Buechner's The Hungering Dark.

Chris: Innocence Mission, both Glow and Umbrella. Bill turned me on to them. I was ignorant of their existence until last year. Glow got my album of 95 award. I liked Son Volt's album a lot too and have recently started listening to Uncle Tupelo because of them. I tend to like female singer songwriters, so I'm listening to Shawn Colvin and Joni Mitchell. I was a big Indigo Girls fan.

Bill: We should probably mention Buddy Miller's album. We like that a lot too.

Chris: I'm still reading Buechner's The Gospel as Tragedy, Comedy and Fairy Tale. It's a very profound book. I like Annie Dillard. I finished The Writing Life recently, but my favorite is the novel she wrote, The Living. It's an account of the settling of a small town in the Pacific Northwest at the turn of the century. It is wonderful. But I really haven't read much lately.

Joe: You all don't read a lot when you are on the road?

Chris: Bill does and Tom does. I sit there and talk a lot, much to their chagrin.

Joe: Do you throw out Altoids in the van?

Bill: Tom will not partake in such tomfoolery, but Chris and I have developed alter egos and we occupy our time making up fictional conversations with them.

Chris: Tom and Bill are the studious ones. But I will make one big recommendation. Anybody who is interested in exploring art and faith, the definitive essay is written by Dorothy Sayers. It's called Toward a Christian Aesthetic. It had a profound influence on shaping my views on art and faith and where those things intersect. I highly recommend it. She actually wrote a book called The Mind of the Maker that developed a whole Christian aesthetic on art, based on the idea of God being first and foremost a creator and how that's developed in the world and in our lives. But, as an introduction to that, there's a book called The Whimsical Christian that is a collection of her essays. Toward a Christian Aesthetic is in it. It's probably the most clear and articulate delineation of what I thought but never knew I thought until I read it.

Tom: I'm sort of in a non-musical phase right now, so I'm not listening to much. But I was listening to Grant Lee Buffalo, both Mighty Joe Moon and Copperopolis. I like those a lot, especially Mighty Joe Moon. And I was listening to a lot of Springsteen. But I'm not listening to much right now. As far as books go, I'm reading The Centaur by John Updike and a book on writing as therapy by a woman called Deanna Metzger. I'm about halfway through with both of those and don't really know what I think of them yet. I read Son of the Circus by John Irving and enjoyed it a lot. And on the last tour, I plowed through Anna Karenina. Quite an undertaking when your roommate is watching television.

The 1996 VOL-list Interview, Part 4

August 20th, in the kitchen with Bill:

Joe: My impression when I left here last time was that there was no way I could overstate how comfortable you are with the new band. In fact, I felt like I had to edit Fred Wright's opening question in order to make your answer make sense. Fred asked a question about how your philosophy has changed since becoming a musician and you started talking about Chris and Tom.

Bill: What was the original question?

Joe: “How do you think that the life-style of a traveling musician influences your work and your world view? Has your theology and life philosophy changed significantly since you left the regular-job world?”

Bill: Yeah, I did sort of jump right into discussing the band. But what I probably didn't make clear the first time was that the original intention of the band was for it to embody lifestyle, nurture, theology and all that. This is that band. None of those other incarnations were it, either because it was a revolving door or because there weren't people who shared the same vision. So I was answering Fred's question, but only from the standpoint that, with these three guys, all of that stuff that drives the music is intact and transparent now. This band learns new songs, which the Struggleville band didn't.

Joe: That aspect, of learning new songs, is real important to you isn't it?

Bill: Yeah, we'll probably always be disappointing some people because we won't be playing the latest album from beginning to end. I think we will be forced to play more of the current stuff if things go well with the new Warner and Mercury releases. I'd like to get a fourth member back on board before we start doing that though.

But as far as Fred's question goes, the only thing I've been dealing with theologically is what 2000 years of Church history have been dealing with. Is our relationship to God something static or is it something that's so predestined that every aspect is planned out. The catalyst to that was the Pinnock book I mentioned last time, The Openness of God. I read one of the follow-ups to that, Unbounded Love. It has left me with the impression that I'm no longer a five point Calvinist. I'm just not sure that teaching is in Scripture. It can be prooftext'd all day long, but I'm not sure it's really there.

Joe: That's a big shift for you. You're an elder in a church that's deeply rooted in Reformed tradition, with a Presbyterian pastor.

Bill: That's true. And I've been very open with them about where my head is at. I haven't really embraced all this completely, but I'm more in line with G. K. Chesterton, in the Everlasting Man, when he speaks of the bitter vinegar of Calvinism. For me, it comes down to the character of God. Because certain things follow from saying that God not only knew the fall was going to happen, but arranged it such. A hard core Calvinist, if they are going to be true to the party line, has to say that. Somehow or another, we are expected to say that God had better intentions planned and that, in spite of the fallenness and death of this world, God is still in control. I'm not completely sure that's the whole picture. I think we are to be stalwart and faithful and trust that God will have the last word in all of that, but I don't think free will is an illusion. That's probably the upshot of reading the Pinnock book.

Joe: I studied Pinnock's book with a friend of mine after you recommended it. We swung back and forth between being really challenged and wanting to burn him at the stake. In the end, it has forced me to rethink some things, but I didn't really move to his camp. I couldn't quite get past the idea that he was describing a weak God.

Bill: He does in fact say that God leaves himself open, but he doesn't believe people can control God. God will have his way and do what he wishes. But I think it is in a general broad outline rather than in specific point by point detail. Although, clearly, in the nation of Israel, with the raising up of the Savior, there were clear prophetic detailed things that were going to have to happen. And I think that's just God breaking into his universe and saying this has to happen for me to accomplish what I want.

What I find it hard to reconcile is that, if God controls everything, it really messes with my ability to say some things are good and some things are evil. I don't think the Calvinist should be able to have it both ways and say that it would all be good if we could just see the big picture. I think this world is really screwed up and we are to blame because God gave us free will and we abused it and we continue to abuse it. And God respects the choice. I think that squares a lot more with what I think the tenor of the Scriptures are about.

Listen, if Jesus was a Calvinist, why would he be weeping over Jerusalem? If he knew who was called and who's not, why is he weeping over the whole city? The Calvinists don't have a very satisfactory answer for that. I think he is weeping because his heart is broken when his people spurn him. I think God is seeking everyone on some level. I know some people are very uncomfortable with Pinnock because they think he has become a Universalist. I don't think he is.

So how has all that theology affected my songs? Well, I really do believe that, 24 hours a day, God is seeking every man, woman, and child. Sometimes that's through natural theology, like seeing a beautiful sunrise or having a significant job or relationship. But all these little nudges in our heart are just signposts or pointers to something else. They say, “what does this remind you of?” That's very C. S. Lewis. Even before he became a Christian, he suspected it was not all for naught.

Joe: So are you consciously trying to put those signposts in your music?

Bill: Yeah, I think so. I've always been a confessional writer, especially in the acoustic stuff. But I seem to be dealing with my own fallenness and with these long moments of cyclical depression that seem to have no basis in anything other than that I just don't feel good.

Joe: So you're still dealing with depression?

Bill: Yeah, and I kind of hate it, but I also kind of enjoy it too. There's something real validating about having a real emotion you can deal with or an emotion that you can identify. I really have to watch it because I tend to isolate myself when that happens. It's one thing to isolate myself and write a song as therapy. But it's another to spend three days in the throes of depression after I've written it, and be no good for anyone. I have to fight against that.

Joe: You seem to swing back and forth in a sort of manic depressive style. Do you write more during one phase or another?

Bill: The bigger louder rock and roll tends to come out of the good times. The more introspective stuff tends to come out of the dark times. It's about a week or so a month of the dark times. Maybe it's just some sort of PMS.

Joe: I spent some time this past weekend listening to the most recent songs of yours that I had. I found more consistency in the themes there than I had seen previously. I'd like to talk a little about those themes.

You and Chris both mentioned the influence of Jay Farrar and the whole Uncle Tupelo/Son Volt emphasis on being on the road. The road is used there as a metaphor for something bigger. You've been on the road for a long time, but it seems more important to you these days.

Bill: Well, I like the road. Having crosses the great divide of 40, I've realized that this is pretty much all I can do. That's not a bad thing. I've become pretty comfortable with it. Whether Chris and Tom and I do it together or whether I do it as a troubadour, I think I'll always be doing it.

There's really something of the pioneer spirit to being out on the road doing what you believe in. The safety net seems pretty thin some days. When the van breaks down and everybody's credit card is charged to the hilt, you're in deep trouble. And that kind of stuff happens frequently. You have to find some reason to keep doing it. Should we drive to the next town or should we just drive home and get day jobs?

With Chris and Tom, the safety net is still thin. But there is a feeling of being in the Lord's hands and seeing an aspect of his grace and favor and mercy on a day to day basis. Seeing the band have some kind of significance and effectiveness is very heartening. Again, all of that is completely devoid of any kind of worldly success, because we certainly haven't sold tons of records and we certainly haven't gotten the kinds of things we thought we needed to get that success. Like videos and print media and things like that.

But we feel strongly about what we're doing. It may be much smaller, but, for that very reason, it may be much stronger. For some reason, the road seems to be the crucible that that stuff comes out of. To use another metaphor. It stretches everybody.

Joe: You aren't just writing about how tough the road is. That aspect is certainly there, but you seem to be thriving on the road. You seem to have put yourself in a place where you are on the edge and have to put your trust in God and in Chris and Tom, and in Brenda back here at the house. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And you seem to get a real charge out of both.

Bill: That's true. That's exactly what's going on. Maybe it's part of maturing to be able to step outside any situation, good or bad, and know that it won't last forever. There's a sobriety about it. We may have just played a great show, but we've got to get in the van and drive eight hours for the next show. And tomorrow night it might be hell, so enjoy the moment, recognize where it comes from and give thanks for it. Or, on the flip side, maybe we've got a great single on a great record and the record company is going to let it die. So what? God is still the Lord and I'm loved. No complaints.

Listen, I've had a national soapbox for this band for four years and have been able to basically say what I wanted to say. And that's huge. There's so much music out there now clamoring for attention. Some of it is Madison Avenue driven and we can't compete with that. But we're not going away. There's still a group of people who enjoy it and support it. I have no complaints.

Joe: You seem very content. I've sat at this table and listened to you and Brenda detail the sacrifices you were making so that you could get to a place where Brenda could quit working and your music was financially successful. And we still hope that happens, but if it doesn't, you still seem content.

Bill: Yeah, the moment has to be it's own reward, or the road, or whatever metaphor you want to put in there. We learned that the industry really is money and excess driven and we don't have those variables to do that on the same level. We have the songs and the band, but not the other stuff.

But, even if we make it big, you can only be king of the hill for so long. So why am I doing this? What was the reason I got started in the first place? It was simply because I enjoy writing songs and performing them in front of people whether that's two people or two thousand. That really has come back into focus for me, though I think I had forgotten it. With the Struggleville thing, so much of it was dependent on commercial success to keep everybody happy. Those three guys really were in it for the money. But, these days, we toss the Sound Scan reports into the trash without looking at them.

Joe: Brenda seems to turn up in your music more often these days. Particularly the longing to return home to her from the road.

Bill: Home is a good place to be.

Joe: So there's this dichotomy. On the one hand, we've already discussed how you're celebrating this life on the road. And on the other hand, you can't wait to get home.

Bill: Well, the celebration is real, but when you're away from something, you appreciate it more. You're not apt to take it for granted. That's probably what that's about. It's probably celebrating it from afar. I do think there is a nearness that's to be had by prayer. I probably pray more for Brenda and my sons when I'm away from them.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. But it does throw things into a pretty sharp relief for me. We've had some great times where we have been in some pretty desolate areas of the country during winter. That's been fodder for some great songs. I don't know what it is emotionally, but I get a real charge out of it. Judas Skin was written at 3 am in a little dorm room at Calvin College when it was about 20 below and snowing outside.

Joe: I'm curious about the writing process. You've said that on a good day you're writing three songs. What is the process that you use to mine these deep emotions you are experiencing and come up with so many great songs?

Bill: I don't know. When I'm doing it, I don't really reflect on the process. One phrase just seems to lead me to another phrase, which leads me to another phrase.

Joe: Are you cataloging phrases and ideas throughout the day?

Bill: Sometimes, I don't do it as much as I used to. Last year I did it a lot. I kept journals on the road of reminisces and stuff like that. It all seemed so self indulgent. It was much easier to just write a song and call it a finished piece. I don't know how to explain the process because I never stand outside and watch it. I'm inside trying to tap the emotion and put a lump in my throat.

Joe: I don't want to beat this dead dog to death until it dies but…

Bill: That's funny, I like it.

Joe: Do you start with a phrase like that and just explode it or play with it and see where it takes you? Then do you add the tune later?

Bill: Actually, usually I start with the tune., but not always. Lately, I have sat at the word processor and typed in five verses with no tune except the cadence in my head. I just have to follow it and try to tap into what's in my head as long as I can. It's like riding a wave or coming down a hill on a bike. There's no one experience that describes it. It's just that sometimes I'm sensitive that I'm locked in on something that feels intuitive and honest and there's not a lot of editing done after that. There's other days that are forced, and I try not to go far with it those days.

Joe: You realize how jealous some musicians who read this will be? There are people out there who struggle all year to come up with their twelve songs. Terry Taylor is the only other musician I know that's like you. He could put out an album every three months if he wanted to.

Bill: But I wonder if that's because we've been taught to bag those emotions and put them out on the side. What's that song about Joe Roberts on Springsteen's Nebraska? The emotions on that song are huge and deep. There's this juxtaposition between this guy who's a lawman who's trying to impose law and order and yet he's been willing to cut his brother slack all his life. The tension in that song is huge. It's just one guy with an acoustic guitar. It's not even well recorded. It was done on 4-track in his basement. But whatever is driving that song, that honesty, is what I want to put into my music. The way it is delivered is as important as what the words say.

Joe: Run with that word for a minute. You are obsessed with honesty these days. It comes out in your lyrics and it's evident in your desire to not overproduce your next album. You want the CD to be an honest record of what people get in the live shows.

Bill: Exactly. There's definitely more of a pop end on the stuff we do live. That's why I'm itching to do a solo acoustic album with all the darker stuff like Blister Soul Reprise, or My Year in Review, or Berlin in 53. I want to put a whole record of that stuff out, just to get it off my chest. I feel like that's great stuff. That's my best stuff. Skin walks up to the door and does that. But it's a different kind of writing. It's usually done in private on rainy gray days.

It's a different aspect of the band. I'm beginning to think I might have to do that stuff solo and have the band doing stuff like Never Let Go and Tokyo Rose. I'd like to be able to do an acoustic set within the bigger show with just me and a traditional instrument, like the accordion. The accordion was great because the scope of that instrument was huge. Somebody like Mark Hall could make it sound like a French impressionistic instrument. Mark's background was classical. When you hear the word accordion, you think of Buckwheat Zydeco or the Ted Mack Amateur Hour. For him, it was an instrument of great depth and breadth.

Jugular feels like an album without a low end, because he's playing in and around the melody line. That's what's beautiful about that record. It's very intoxicating. I've never heard anybody else play like that. Accordians are great. It's the rock instrument of the future. Who'd a thunk it?

Joe: The next theme I think you've already touched on. The desire to express yourself. The need to get what's inside you out.

Bill: It's just therapeutic for me. On one level, it's probably incredibly pretentious and pompous to talk so much about one's self. I think the song that got me back into that was Where My Seed Might Find Purchase.

Joe: Wait a minute, I hate to interrupt you and I want to come back to this question, but there's a band version of Love Cocoon on the demos for the Mercury album that's playing right now. Are you putting that on the album?

Bill: The label asked us to record a band version of it. Dan thinks it's a modern rock hit. I think he's out of his mind. I'm afraid it will be more of a novelty song than anything else. And it's also more tied to roots rock than anything I hear on a modern rock station.

I think, if the label gets out and pushes the album, it could be a great b-side to the third single. I'd put it on a four song EP with the single, an acoustic song of some sort and the original accordion version of Love Cocoon. Oasis did that on their first album. They had five singles. Each one was released with the single, a live song, and two acoustic tracks. It's great marketing.

But Love Cocoon is too precious to me to turn it into a commodity and have everybody hootiehoo for it all night long.

Joe: My wife and I love the song and I really appreciated Brenda's comments about it earlier in the interview. But I would be scared of what the label might do with it. I can just see them giving it to some independent producer to make a video without your involvement. I have this horrible image of you guys getting popular because of this song and spending the rest of your lives in clubs full of people waving beers in the air screaming for that song about screwing. The song is about you and your wife, but that's a very subtle point.

Bill: Exactly. I'm afraid that's what would happen. In fact, I know that's what would happen. I think I would say no, even if Dan could guarantee me we would be wildly successful if we did it. I'd rather fade into obscurity doing what I want to do than to have something like that as an albatross around my neck. I'm going to record it, but I don't know what I'll do with it. There needs to be some decorum about it or it's going to be misunderstood. On the flip side of that issue, Dan actually wanted it on the Warner record.

Joe: Love Cocoon on a record that's being released to Christian bookstores? You've got to be kidding?

Bill: Well, obviously it didn't happen and it never will. But I think it's a market that needs shaken up. There's a lot of talent over there that needs to be freed up to write honest songs. I don't think we know how to do anything except that. We've learned to work with our limitations. We can't write what Chris calls “funky little Mama music.” He came up with that phrase listening to all those HORDE tour bands because he says you can use that phrase anywhere in their songs. When we're in a club and one of those kind of bands is playing, he'll wander over to where I'm in earshot and start singing that. He nails it perfectly every time.

How in the world did I get off on that? Where was I? Oh yeah, ccm.

We can't write the stuff that makes up most of that market. If we did, it would sound dishonest, like we were trying to copy something else. I'd like to think that when we're doing our job that there's something honest and unique about it. It may not be for everybody and only a handful of people may like it. But if you want it, here it is. Full strength, 200 proof. I'd like to think that's what we've got to offer.

Joe: You realize how pretentious and insulting that can sound to other Christian musicians who read this interview. “Oh, he thinks his stuff is honest and ours isn't.”

Bill: Let me just say this. I think everybody takes cues from somewhere, including us. But I think a musician has to forget about those influences and make your audience believe that what you are saying is believable and that you personally believe it. If you aren't willing to step on stage and take risks in an attempt to move the listener who has shelled out fifteen bucks in a Christian bookstore for your CD, then I don't care to hear about it. Life's too short for bad music.

I know that sounds high-falutin. And, honest to goodness, I know that it's only rock and roll or pop music and that it's disposable. But people these days take pop music seriously. Most people don't really listen to classical compositions anymore. Bach and Beethoven aren't making philosophical and religious statements in 1996. The ideas of our age are being proposed by pop culture people.

Most Christian bands are not getting exposure in, or are being rejected by, the general marketplace. What if that's because they're just not any good and not because they are being persecuted because of their faith?

They've got the image stuff down. They're taking all their cues from MTV and, Lord knows, they're just as radical as anything on MTV. So there's nothing new or inspiring or unique there. They're playing the same instruments and trying to sound like Nirvana or Pearl Jam, or whatever the flavor of the week is. CCM is open to the charge, and quite justifiably, that whatever is popular this year in the mainstream will be in the Christian bookstores next year. That's not originality.

Hopefully, when I'm doing my job, it may look ugly or depressing sometimes, but I think it shows an honest struggle between giving something of myself from the inside and trying to see the world through the eyes of faith. Lately, I've been writing songs that are like some of the Psalms that don't have happy endings. Some of the Psalms end with “Lord, where are you? I'm beaten down and where are you?”

Joe: You do that in Bolt Action. No one goes up and saves the guy in the tower. In fact, at the end, he is still up there fingering the trigger of his rifle and wondering if he should start picking off pedestrians.

Bill: Exactly, and if someone wants to know how that can be a Christian song, I'd say that in a broad context it is a Christian song, because it deals with the theology of the fall. It's the bad news that has to come before the good news. That and the fact that I use the word Lamentations in the song.

One of the first books that came into my hands after I came to the University of Georgia was by Francis Schaeffer, so I've been plagued ever since by looking at the big picture and trying to make sense out of it and culturally critiquing everything from why Kroger changed it's marketing plan to Christian music. It's kind of a curse in a way.

Joe: I think people like that make up a lot of your fan base. That's certainly the way I am and I think it is part of why your music speaks to me.

Bill: Yeah, I think you're right.

Joe: And, for that very reason, I have this fear that you can't ever get real popular because there are a limited number of those kind of people. I read in the paper this morning about the summer movie season and the huge hits, like Independence Day. The phrase that has emerged this year is the word “ride.” They aren't just films anymore, they are rides. They were interviewing some producer, who actually asked for anonymity, who was lamenting that he didn't know how to make that kind of movie. He knows how to make films about people with subtle points and he was scared that there was not going to be a market for his work in the future.

Bill: Yeah, I took my sons to see Independence Day and Twister. They were just constantly in your face.

Joe: And, even though you do big nasty rock and roll, I'd hardly describe it as a ride.

Bill: It's not a spectacle.

Joe: So are you going to be stuck as a sort of Woody Allen, with critical praise and a small but loyal group of fans?

Bill: The Woody Allen of Rock and Roll. That's great. Not enough spectacle. He didn't blow Diane Keaton up even once. He didn't tie her to a track and hit her with a train. That's hilarious. We could go into this forever. Will I get stuck in some little niche? I don't know, maybe.

See, I'd like to think that there's some discerning people out there. I know that there are a good number of teens that seem to get it. We got a letter from a thirteen year old the other day that was really sweet. She said that “I have well over 25 CDs now, and Mr. Mallonee, you rank in my top five.” Now that's very cute, but it's also very high praise. We felt great about it. And she was very specific about it. She said she liked the lyrics, because they made her think. For a thirteen year old, that's huge. How atypical, but surely there's more kids like her out there.

Unfortunately, most alternative rock ccm seems to have succumbed to the more spectacular end of the spectrum. They look like they are trying to see how close they can be to the Seattle sound or the modern rock sound, or whatever, without the nasty side of those scenes. Look, those kids are entitled to their own influences. But it just seems too trendy to me. I'd rather make something that embodies influences that have stood the test of more than two years.

The Olympic torch passed through here recently and they had this ceremony downtown. The Oak Grove Baptist Church choir, about 50 strong, sang at it. It was huge. Why is it that people, Christian and non-Christian alike, respond to that stuff? Because it is honest and well done and it is so powerful and other-worldly that you can't help but be pulled into it. That's the kind of music I want to make.

I want to put that stuff into rock and roll. That stuff is timeless. I just don't think Nirvana is going to be timeless. It might be, but I just don't think Smells Like Teen Spirit is going to be timeless in the same way that folk and blues and gospel music is.

I think of VOL sometimes in a demolition derby motif. It's not the best looking car that wins the race. It's the one that keeps going.

Joe: We're about out of tape and time, so let's talk about the songs on the new albums real quick. Four new songs on the Warner CD. How did you pick those four?

Bill: Warner wanted Doublecure and we agreed that it was perfect for the ccm market. Frankly, we think it's perfect for general market too. The other three were picked because they all felt like they could be singles in the general market. I'm a little discouraged right now, because I'm not convinced they are going to actually release them as singles. Our deal with Warner is currently only for one record, so I'm not sure they are going to spend a lot on marketing. I think that's a mistake, not only because the possibility of future records with us still exists, but also because it sends a bad signal to other bands they might sign.

Joe: Do you want to talk any about the Mercury album you are getting ready to go into the studio to record?

Bill: There are about 25 songs being considered. The 22 on the demo we are listening to and we might record different versions of three of the new songs on the Warner record. We cut those at John's in just two days, so they are pretty raw. I'd like to try doing them a little different. Not necessarily better, just different. From those 25, I'd like to put about 16 on the new album. By cutting more than what actually makes it onto the album, we end up with extra songs to perform on the road.

I think the new record is going to sound good. I'm excited and I think my confidence on the electric guitar is coming through. The new record is going to be that noisy three piece sound with three or four acoustic Blister Soul Reprise kind of songs. Very heart on the sleeve kind of things. My Year in Review might make the cut. Judas Skin I think will definitely be on there. A song called Only a Scratch that I've played a couple of times. It's a lot of brand new stuff.

I hope we can get it recorded and get it out before we start playing a lot of it live. In the past, I think we've probably worn out a lot of songs before we got them on a record and people were disappointed when it came out because they already knew the song and maybe liked it better live.

Joe: For a band that has had a fair amount of label troubles, you seem to be in a great position right now with two labels working your stuff and playing off one another.

Bill: Yeah, we feel real looked after.

Joe: I thought you gave up on Calvinism.

Bill: I'm just a mass of contradictions aren't I?

Joe: Anything I didn't ask that you want to talk about?

Bill: No, I think that pretty well covers it. I really appreciate you doing this and Rob running the list and the web page. When I meet some new journalist, the first thing I tell them is to go to the web and read last year's interview.

I really appreciate the folks on this list and in the fan club and I wish I could give them permission to tape the shows so they could have all the songs. But the label will come after me for that kind of stuff. If I belch in a microphone, it belongs to them. I don't really care, but they think they are being robbed with that kind of stuff.

If I could, I'd ask you to bring your video camera into my basement and I'd play 40 new songs and let you send that out to folks on the Internet list. But the label would kill me. I know they think that stuff is robbing from them, but I think it enhances their sales. Anybody who is willing to plunk down fifteen or twenty bucks to join a fan club and get a tape or a CD or a video once a year is going to be someone who buys my new record the day it hits the shelves.

Joe: Well, that certainly describes the folks on the list. Thanks for taking the time to do this for them again. See you next year for the third annual.

Bill: Tell everybody thanks for their support. Let's go get a taco.

 

 

 

 

 

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